Our national trench latrine (Hawaii)...
I was recently on another blog where I compared the state of Hawaii unfavorably to Berkley, CA. Evidently that got under the skin of a commenter from that state, we began an exchange which was briefly halted by my attending a retreat this past weekend. Now it continues.
Since I feel it's inconsiderate to conduct a "flame war" on someone else's site, I've invited "Scott" to come here to air his side. Don't know if he will, actually I kind of doubt it. But you never know.
Anyway, here's my take on Hawaii.
I was stationed there briefly back in '78-79 aboard the USS Omaha (SSN 692), the first 688 class boat to undergo PSA at the local shipyard. That took up the majority of my time there, about nine months total in the yard. My first wife and I lived out in the Pualoa housing development in the Ewa Beach area (Ewa is pronounced "Eh-vah" in Hawaiian). Pretty swank housing at the time, still fairly brand new and well maintained.
I'd say that 13 months I spent in Hawaii was about the longest decade of my life. A few examples of why follow:
1) Shortly after my own arrival a Swedish tourist made the mistake of going to the "wrong" beach at the north end of Oahu. For that she was gang raped, sodomized, etc. Overall the reaction as expressed in the Honolulu Advertiser and on the local radio stations was that "she must have been looking for it". I'm not talking about just one or two wingnuts voicing that opinion, I'd say at least half of the locals who spoke up cheerfully voiced it. Nice, huh?
2) Many of my shipmates who were married and had kids were forced to deal with a local tradition in the schools known as "Kill Haole Day" (haole being a derogatory term for whites from off the island). One neighbor woman who had been there a while related how a child was taken to Tripler Army Hospital with a busted head after a classmate met him with a 2x4 at the door. Supposedly the teachers did nothing to discourage this. Maybe it was the stuff of urban legend, I didn't have any kids in school at the time so I can't say for certain. But I know all the non Polynesian parents in the housing area kept their kids home on that day. It was also one of the main reasons I was so hellbent to leave after my daughter was born. No way my kid becomes someone else's punching bag just for the sake of it.
I'll also mention that the natives were equal opportunity bigots. Some of the black members of our crew discovered that when they tried frequenting the local discos.
3) The local shopping center in Ewa Beach was located across the road from a high school. This entire area was placed off limits to military personnel and their dependents from six at night until six in the morning for a period of about 2-3 months. This occurred after the dependent wives in a bowling league were routinely harassed by some of the little teenaged darlings. The local police did zip about it, it continued to the point where a pregnant wife was knocked on her ass by the boys. At that point the brass in charge of the Barbers Point area had enough (Barbers Point Naval Air Station being the facility with overall responsibility for military personnel in that area). So they placed it off limits until the locals could get their acts together. In my 22 years in the military I've seen a fair amount of establishments make the "Off Limits" list. This was unique, an entire strip mall/shopping center deemed too risky for military members and their dependents because of the constant shenanigans of youths and the apathy of the authorities. In the course of things the local news media interviewed several folk, I recall a youth smugly opining on camera that if the military didn't like what was going on "they should just go back to the mainland". Cute kid.
4) At the time the shopping center was placed off limits I warned my wife not to frequent the public transportation, feeling that these situations could easily escalate. Being pigheaded she ignored me. So when I came home one afternoon and she was being tearfully consoled by a friend it came as no surprise to me. She had ridden the bus just to get some air (the woman was an epileptic and couldn't drive). While aboard the bus a punk made her life hell by verbally harassing her, loudly offering to screw her like she'd never had it before and other expressions of affection. Although there were a fair amount of other passengers aboard the bus nobody did a thing. Nor did the driver. Another class act. She didn't ride the bus by herself after that one.
5) The original comment I made that riled Scott involved a comparison of Hawaii to Berkley, CA. Time to tell the truth, I've never been to Berkley. So maybe it would be the norm there for gay men to engage in public displays of affection with each other, just at it was in Wakiki. Maybe when you pull up to a traffic light you'll find yourself offered a toke from a joint in an adjoining car, just as happened to me when driving through Ewa Beach. Maybe there is a local red light district where it's rumored you can get anything for a price, just as Hotel Street in Honolulu was (although I've heard the authorities finally cleaned that toilet up). I didn't spend my military career in a choir loft, I'm familiar with red light districts. Hotel Street hit a new low for me.
I don't know, maybe Hawaii doesn't have more moonbats than Berkley. But from what I experienced I doubt they have less.
The incidents I recall are just a few of what happened in a relatively short period of time (13 mos.). With a gap of over 30 years I'm sure there has been some loss of both good and bad memories. Things may have changed too, I mentioned the local red light district got shut down. Who knows what other positive things may have happened? But every now and then I run into someone who reinforces my sentiments. Last year at a men's AA meeting I spoke with a man whose daughter gave up a full ride scholarship to the University of Hawaii. She originally went for it with the notion of learning in a tropical paradise, but it seems she got tired of seeing "Go Home, Haole Bitch" written on her dorm room door. So as of a year ago she was matriculating to a school in Oklahoma. I had to correct "Dad" as to the pronunciation of "haole", he was unfamiliar with the Aloha State. But he was definetly P.O.ed about how his little girl got treated.
To sum it up, I've no use for Hawaii. It's got a lot of beautiful scenery, the climate is ideal and the natives are mostly scum after you get them away from the tourist areas. The only contribution they've made to our popular culture is the muumuu, I'm sure lots of fat women are grateful for that. The state is our nation's version of a Third World toilet, once you move from the areas with money it seems everyone lives in a slum.
FWIW, even prior to our boat's move from Connecticut to the Aloha State an antipathy towards it was evident. One guy who had married a girl from there found himself getting divorced due in part to the fact she had no use for her home state. I'm talking about a native born, full blooded Polynesian woman with her family of origin still in the Islands, someone with real roots in the place and not some "happa-haole" (half-blooded white) girl who was the product of "mom's" dalliance with a mainlander. There were other factors driving their seperation but from what I was told her reluctance to "go home" figured prominently in the split. So even some of the natives can't stand the place and the people in it. There were also some crewmembers who did all they could to transfer off the boat prior to the move. They'd been in Hawaii already and were less than impressed. I'm voicing what is actually a common theme amongst military personnel who have been there. That theme can be expressed as, "Hawaii sucks on toast".
I'm sure my opinion doesn't amount to squat in the long run. The Hawaiian islands will continue to prosper off the tourist industry, military personnel stationed there will endure it until they can transfer out and malcontents like myself will be brushed off.
I can live with that, I don't plan on ever going back. My children won't experience getting mugged because they're of the wrong race, I don't get told to learn a pigdin version of English because the local populace is too lazy to learn what the rest of the nation has in the way of proper pronunciation and I'm not in the middle of a gay pride parade every time I go into Dallas. Anyone wanting my share of Hawaii can have it. I'll live and die here in Texas where I'll be known as the fat Yankee who robbed the local cradle for a beautiful lady to become his wife. Works for me.
So Scott, if you've come to this site just fire away in the comments. It'll make for interesting reading I'm sure.
11 comments:
The events on Hotel Street were far nastier than anything offered in Subic Bay. And that was a rat hole.
Thanks for the invite, subvet. I'm glad for the opportunity to double your readership.
I'll start with #5, since that is the place the disagreement mainly lies. It is telling that you leave it for last and least.
What you originally said was [let us remember the original subject was in regards to liberal Catholicism] "It's Hawaii, what else can be expected? In many ways that entire state makes Berkley, Ca. look like Selma, AL. of the 50's. "
When it FINALLY comes down to it, the only reason you have for the comparison is that you saw two gay guys in Waikiki.
Oh--that and you were offered marijuana. Oh, wait---two gay guys, marijuana, and there were prostitutes on Hotel St.
Of course, we both know the marijuana and prostitute mentions were simply you padding your argument, because marijuana and prostitutes have no specific reference to Berkeley.
So, let's look at your comment again: "In many ways that entire state makes Berkley, Ca. look like Selma, AL. of the 50's. "
Your proof?
Some gay guys showing public affection in Waikiki.
But now it turns out you have never even BEEN TO Berkeley. And NEVER BEEN to the rest of the state outside of SOME OF Oahu. (Count me as not surprised).
So, you compare AN ENTIRE STATE to a place you've never been, based on you seeing gay guys--white Americans no doubt--- in Waikiki.
The other incidents you mention are a different subject-- one which I will post on later.
For now, I think it is obvious your original statement was based on not much more than anger about other subjects.
Lt., You're right in that the original reference was to liberal Catholicism. Where you miss the mark is not realizing those liberal expressions only flourish where they're encouraged by the local culture.
As for my travels within the state, cable TV was nonexistent while I was there, let alone satellite dishes. Now what that means is I was subjected to a lot of local programming. Funny how you can pick up on the mindset of a place by what they choose to broadcast. As an example, here in Texas there are a lot more televangelists seen on the tube than up in New England. Conservative expressions of worship, like their liberal counterparts, flourish where they're encouraged.
The tripe broadcast then was on a par with all the swill the rest of our culture has degenerated to now. So in that aspect, Hawaii was ahead of it's time. This also extended to the airwaves and the printed media.
Yep, you're right in that I never left Oahu. Didn't have the inclination to waste my money. But many of my shipmates did. They all agreed the entire state was pretty much the same, i.e. a weird toilet. Experience is a great teacher, but only a damned fool relies solely on his own.
It wasn't just the pot, or the hookers or the fags. It was the overall encouragement for these items and many like them. If it was strange and "counter cultural" it was enthusiastically embraced by Hawaiians. An encouragement and acceptance cheerfully put out over the airwaves, published in your local fishwrap and shown on your local television. Overall, your state struck us and many like us as just plain ridiculously weird and immoral for the sake of being so and nothing else.
You haven't disappointed me, you're a typical Hawaiian. That means you're arrogantly proud of living in a shithole and find fault with anyone who would tell the truth about it. Take a moment and reflect that I was only the first at Insight Scoop to ruffle your feathers, Dymphna also related what she'd heard from a trusted source and if you look to the top of this comment page you'll see that Arby threw his two cents in also. There are quite a number of us who just don't think Hawaii is all that.
There's an old saying in AA; If one person calls you a jackass they're probably wrong. When several people call you a jackass then you should go shopping for a saddle.
As for not living in Berkley and thereby not having a basis for comparing it to Hawaii, I HAVE lived in California and HAVE had related to me much of the expressions of a liberal mindset that find their outlet in that place. Nothing there matches the bizarre/disgusting things I saw and heard of in Hawaii.
This is fun. Keep coming back so I can educate you further about the cesspool you defend.
Arby, when a place is compared to Subic Bay and comes out the loser that really says something.
Rev. Gregori, it's all of that and much more. None of it good. Once you get away from where the money is you'd think you were in a Third World country.
You couldn't have retired from a career in subs without ever having gone to Subic Bay, could you? Am I wrong? I saw nothing and heard (from shipmates) nothing about Subic Bay that was as raunchy as what took place in Hawaii. Now, I cannot speak to the rest of the state, but as for the red light district...wow!
Arby, yeah it's entirely possible to spend a in the sub force and never see Subic. I transferred off the Omaha right before their first WesPac, going back to Sublant where I stayed.
My knowledge of Subic came from my brother, he was in the Marines and actually stationed for a short time in the Phillipines. He found himself shacking up with one of the bar girls from that area too. Big surprise, they DIDN'T get married!
As for my knowledge of the rest of Oahu beyond Hotel Street, you probably know that whole island isn't too big. If you lived out near Ewa Beach as I did and found yourself routinely circumventing it to please the wife, you got a fair taste of the place. It all sucked as far as I'm concerned. Nice climate, very scenic, but overpopulated with weirdos and jerks.
Stick to the facts, subvent.
In the end, I could not care less whether you like this place or not. You come off as an angry racist and about the least christian person I've ever seen post on Ignatius' site, so your opinion holds little water.
The original statement was you comparing Hawaii to Berkeley (please at least learn to spell it correctly)regarding liberal Catholicism.
You've had a week and you still have offered ZERO proof of your original statement.
I'm assuming you have no direct evidence to offer since you keep dancing aorund the subject.
You state that you are a revert to Catholicism. That probably means you've never been to mass here. You've never been to any churches here. You've never had any significant contact with Catholic faithful here.
You are very big on cussing, insults, generalizations, and bigotry. How about some specifics?
Questions:
*Were you drinking heavily when you were stationed here?
*Have you ever been to mass here?
*Have you ever been to another denominational church here?
*Have you for some reason kept up on Catholicism in Hawaii for the last twenty-two years?
*Do you have ANY direct experience with Catholic churches, priests, religious, and laypeople in Hawaii?
Judging by your words, you have a very large anger problem. I pray that you are able to overcome this as you grow deeper in your faith and grow closer to God.
We faithful Catholics in Hawaii welcome you back to the Church which you left. We pray that you find enough humility to realize that the Church does not consist solely of white Americans and Rome. We also pray that you find enough humility to realize that there were faithful, orthodox Catholics all over the world staying close to the Church all the years you were gone.
LT
Lt, now you're playing the "racist" card. Just because I have no use for Hawaiians? Hey, there are white people who are native born in that toilet also. I have no use for them either.
Your state is a dump. End of story. The people who reside there are, for the most part, beyond contempt. The examples given of Hawaiian hatred for mainlanders are things you can't refute and are prime examples of the racism condoned there. You're not man enough to admit it so you try to divert attention by personal attacks upon myself.
I'm amused by your diatribes. You claim my opinions hold little water yet you can't stay away from replying to them. Doesn't say much good about yourself, does it?
As for my original statement, it wasn't directed at any part of Catholicism but an observation of Hawaii in general. Since you seem to reside in that toilet you'd have little if any contact with the rest of the nation. So you've no idea of what a bunch of fruit loops, wingnuts and fools you and your fellow Hawaiians seem to America in general. Sorry but it's difficult to explain something you've obviously never encountered.
Here's a sample of "weird". Somebody who gets so completely out of control of his emotions over a statement made on a Catholic blog that the owner feels compelled to censor his response. Sound like anyone you might know?
Perhaps on your next comment here (we both know you're too fired up now to stay away) maybe you could address the other four items on my post. In 58 years I've never had that happen for incidents such as described. But Hawaiians of my acquaintance like to think of themselves as unique, so I'm sure you'll try to justify rape, assault and sexual harassment.
Never Been To Hawaii. So all I say is what I heard.
Of all the people I worked with in the Army, who were stationed there--usually at Schofield, the only one who liked it also liked having sex with other guys.
Of the three full blooded Hawaians I worked with, all three joined to get out of Hawaii.
Of the four wome I know who went to Hawaii, at various times, one was raped, two were robbed and the last was beaten up when she ordered acup of coffee at a treet cart.
I've never been to Hawaii, and I'm never going.
IR, what you say jibes with everything I ever heard or experienced. The cultural mindset of those islands was at best weird and at worst intolerable. If folk on the mainland acted that way (especially white folk) the Feds would be pressured to put the state under martial law.
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